halftrackinfo
general discussion => what's on your mind? => Topic started by: SgtKish on October 15, 2023, 02:31:11 AM
-
Can anyone tell me if there is a difference in sizes in the upper ring that holds all the armor together at the top? Are they all the same size, or are some models like the m2 smaller by a couple inches then the M3? I have an M3 I'm doing a complete rebuild on, and I have the front part of the upper ring that connects to the windshield. Then connects just behind the doors, and then the rest has been torched off. So I thought I would be able to make the rest of the ring after installing the armor. Well first off I forgot that there was an angle iron piece that attached to the top of the windshield to the actual front part of the ring. So if anyone has a picture of that piece, I would love to get eyes on it again?
So all the bolts in the front and down some of the sides line up, but when I tighten them down. It pulls the armor in way too far. So it doesn't look to be square. Plus the driverside front is only an inch in from the outside edge of the windshield. Where the right side is 2 inches in. So it's not centering right and looks to be too small by a couple inches in total width.
I think I may have to make the whole thing. So my next question is, would it be possible to find a diagram of this upper ring for an M3 so I can make one? Lastly where can I find the decals for the surge tank and oil filter, maybe the small carb fuel filter sticker as well? Thank you.
Mark
-
All the M3 rings, or top rails as they’re more commonly called, should be the same size. Maybe yours got bent at some point. I’ve restored 6 halftracks and scout cars, and every one has been a real job to get the armor lined up with the frame, windshield armor, and top rail. Having an intact top rail, or skate rail helps a lot, but it can be done. Maybe someone has a top rail for sale.
-
It has a slight curve or bend where it meets the armor strip ( B pillar ) behind the front door. Maybe that bend was cut away when the cab portion of the rail was cut off from the rear portion. They are all the same width. I'll try and get a picture up for you of the one I'm working on so you can see what I'm referring to.
-
These are the pics of what's going on here. I can't wrap my head around what's happening here. I have the upper rail centered, and there is 1" 7/8 on both sides where the front corner of the rail should come out to the edge of the window. So that the side door armor can close and lay flush against. Yet I have almost 2 inches of space there. Plus almost 2 in on each side too far inn, going down the side armor. When I make the rest of the rail and weld it on straight at its current position. It will fold the side armor in at the top way too much. It really isn't possible that this rail goes to another vic like a Scout car, and the body is 4 in shorter in width? Can anyone tell me what this conundrum is about please. Thanks
Mark
-
Mark - The perimeter rail doesn't go clear out to the door at the front. Also, the attach angle is 84 degrees, not 90 degrees. The drawing was traced from my original attach angle. Sorry for the sideways picture - no luck turning it around. If you need any more pictures or measurements, just let me know.
Jon
-
That's very helpful intel, thank you. It looked like I was going to have to bend that 1/4 " angle iron front bracket, but your drawing here is good to have. You wouldn't happen to have the hole layout/ measurements? That could line me up so much easier and may help with actual placement of the upper rail. I sold my last M3 rebuild to the Doolittle Museum in SC. So I have nothing to go off of anymore. I thought that rail was flush with the door, but I can't remember really. Obviously your pic clears that up a bit..haha, but I still don't understand why it's too far in by 2 in on each side where it meets the b pilliers.maybe it's bent and I need to cut a relief in the b piller area to bend it out. Then add the new pieces from there going down the side armor and rear. Do you think you could get me a measurement across the width of the rail on yours? 1 measurement at the first slight bent at the beginning of the Bpiller, and another after the second bend where the rails would start to be parallel to eachother? That would let me know if mine is bent, and where I need to correct these bends. If you could get me that off your track, or steer me in a direction where there is a blueprint of the upper rail, I would be very grateful sir? Thanks again for the help.
Mark
-
I have a couple of fires to put out in the morning and then I'll get those for you.
-
I suspect that once the rear/back sections are in place, it would push the side further out. There’s obviously tension on the remaining side pieces. Have you got some new pieces to weld in? I’d be tempted to weld in the new sections and then bolt in the rear first and it should push the original side pieces out.
-
Looks like the passenger side of the rail has been bent or crushed.
-
I think Jesse is on to something. Looks like you have an extra bend. If you straighten that, it looks like it might be enough to get you the length you need. However, I would verify the dimensions of the perimeter rail section that goes from the front corner to what you are calling the B-pillar, where the bend from the cab to the troop compartment occurs.
-Tom
-
Oh man you really depressed me on that one. I was pretty sure that there was supposed to be two bends right there, but I guess I'm not exactly positive. I will have to get measurements somehow and verify that bends placement. So to be clear, there is not supposed to be 2 bends in that location, just one?
-
Here's a couple shots of the driver's side on mine. It's an original rail. They're not real smooth bends. Sorry again for the sideways pictures.
-
Regarding the attach angle measurements, the vertical leg has eight 3/8" holes. The holes start out 4" each side of the center line and then are 8" on center. The horizontal leg has nine 3/8" holes with the first hole on the center line and 8" on center until the end holes, which on mine are 5-5/8" on center. If your perimeter rail is original, it should have the holes for the vertical leg. Your half-track may already have holes in the windshield frame for the horizontal leg. Attached is a sketch of an original attach angle. I hope this helps. Jon
-
Would you say there are 2 bends there? One at the start if the b piller armor, and one after it starting at the front 54 in long side armor plate? Was you able to get those 2 measurements across the width of the upper rail ? Thank you sir.
-
I have one arm in a sling so I have to wait for help to measure across for you. I'll get that for you as soon as I can. The bends that I've seen all look a little different. I'm guessing that when they were bent, the inside just kind of ran wild and wrinkled a little wherever it felt like wrinkling so it may look bent up.
-
Can someone confirm that maybe this angle is not 84°, and maybe its really 94°? In the pictureit looks to be an acute angle, not obtuse like it is saying it is. I just want to check before i bend this angle. Thanks
MarkThat's very helpful intel, thank you. It looked like I was going to have to bend that 1/4 " angle iron front bracket, but your drawing here is good to have. You wouldn't happen to have the hole layout/ measurements? That could line me up so much easier and may help with actual placement of the upper rail. I sold my last M3 rebuild to the Doolittle Museum in SC. So I have nothing to go off of anymore. I thought that rail was flush with the door, but I can't remember really. Obviously your pic clears that up a bit..haha, but I still don't understand why it's too far in by 2 in on each side where it meets the b pilliers.maybe it's bent and I need to cut a relief in the b piller area to bend it out. Then add the new pieces from there going down the side armor and rear. Do you think you could get me a measurement across the width of the rail on yours? 1 measurement at the first slight bent at the beginning of the Bpiller, and another after the second bend where the rails would start to be parallel to eachother? That would let me know if mine is bent, and where I need to correct these bends. If you could get me that off your track, or steer me in a direction where there is a blueprint of the upper rail, I would be very grateful sir? Thanks again for the help.
Mark
-
Oh OK, no problem. I checked both sides, and they both have 2 bends on the same spot that look like clean intentional bends.
-
That's very helpful intel, thank you. It looked like I was going to have to bend that 1/4 " angle iron front bracket, but your drawing here is good to have. You wouldn't happen to have the hole layout/ measurements? That could line me up so much easier and may help with actual placement of the upper rail. I sold my last M3 rebuild to the Doolittle Museum in SC. So I have nothing to go off of anymore. I thought that rail was flush with the door, but I can't remember really. Obviously your pic clears that up a bit..haha, but I still don't understand why it's too far in by 2 in on each side where it meets the b pilliers.maybe it's bent and I need to cut a relief in the b piller area to bend it out. Then add the new pieces from there going down the side armor and rear. Do you think you could get me a measurement across the width of the rail on yours? 1 measurement at the first slight bent at the beginning of the Bpiller, and another after the second bend where the rails would start to be parallel to eachother? That would let me know if mine is bent, and where I need to correct these bends. If you could get me that off your track, or steer me in a direction where there is a blueprint of the upper rail, I would be very grateful sir? Thanks again for the help.
Mark
-
Oh OK, no problem. I checked both sides, and they both have 2 bends on the same spot that look like clean intentional bends.
Well that's good news I guess....sorry if I spooled you up!
-
No worries man, I'm just taking in all the intel I can get at the moment. I think you are right about it being bent though. I think when the last farmer had it modified. They welded 2 1 inch bolts on top of the rail at the first bend corner at the very front, and one at the bend you are talking about at the front of the B piller behind the pass door. I think the heat from the weld pulled those two parts in quite a bit, and that may be what's going on here. I might just cut a relief at the front corner, and on at the b idler. Then try to bend it back once I can confirm what the actual width is of the rail where both side rails go straight and parallel.
-
Can someone confirm that maybe this angle is not 84°, and maybe its really 94°? In the pictureit looks to be an acute angle, not obtuse like it is saying it is. I just want to check before i bend this angle. Thanks
Mark
[/quote]
84 degrees is an acute angle.
-
My original perimeter rail width behind doors 76 5/8" o.d.
Front window rail width 60 1/2" o.d
-
Thank you very much for that sir.
-
Sorry i may have said that wierd. I know 84° is an acute angle. Just the way im trying to hold up this upper rail, and judge the angle. It looks like the angle should be more obtuse just past 90° a little. I shouldn't have questioned your drawing. After taking a better look at it. I believe that is the angle i need. My mistake,
Thanks again for that drawing. I wont question your information again ...haha. Bear with me here, things are getting frustrating in the shop with this thing. Im starting to loose my sanity a little. I think i got everything i need to make it happen. Just need to know how long the rail is from the windshield to the back.Can someone confirm that maybe this angle is not 84°, and maybe its really 94°? In the pictureit looks to be an acute angle, not obtuse like it is saying it is. I just want to check before i bend this angle. Thanks
Mark
84 degrees is an acute angle.
[/quote]
-
Please - question me! I'm wrong way more often than I happen to get it right.
-
Check the other thread
Don G.