halftrackinfo
electrical system => gauges => Topic started by: steve-0 on November 16, 2011, 01:55:36 PM
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the original dc volt gages had 3 small screws on the outer face holding them in. i haven't been able to find that mounting style in modern gages but i did find some that will fit and look good.
original gages 2 1/16"
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_0418.JPG
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_04151.JPG
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_04191.JPG
some i liked
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SWW-82481/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/VDO-332702/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NVU-40123-03/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-1592/
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Gauges-Analog/Gauge-Type/Voltmeter/Gauge-Size-in/2-1-16-in-diameter/?Ns=Rank%7cAsc&page=1
momentary switch
Cutler Hammer Part No: 8440K3 is the best match i have found
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/item/137862/
http://www.onlinecomponents.com/cutler-hammer-eaton_8440k3.html?p=11066816
the following is some stuff that is kind of close
im not sure how hard these are to push.
some would need the plunger trimmed down to look right but then you might loose the travel needed to activate it.
http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/160/91811/
http://www.partdeal.com/switches/push-button/school-bus-momentary-switch.html
http://www.globelectric.com/49.html
http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/ryder/af/ryder/core/content/product/srm/key/V30%2091811/pn/Door-Momentary-Switch-4-Screw/erm/productDetail.do;jsessionid=9611226D4155503106E246A3232602F9
http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/160/9180/
http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/156/9100/
this one has one terminal and would ground through the switch
http://www.apartswarehouse.com/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=210
http://www.mcmaster.com/#8185k11/=eypavm
part number 8185K11
might have potential
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/2105/TYCO_ALCOSWITCH%20-%20SPDT%20MOMENTARY%203%20AMP%20_%20125%20VAC_%20Pkg%20of%204_%20-%20MPS103F/
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Hello all,
Thanks for posting the information about meters and switches. I decided to take the plunge and reinstall this monitoring system after my voltage regulator died and I didn't realize it. The voltmeter on my instrument cluster really never spike too far one way or the other, maybe it's out of whack, so I just didn't have any tell tale sign that the regulator bit the dust until one morning my batteries were dead.
Long story short I can't afford an original, even if I could find one. I did some internet snooping based on some of the links provided in this topic. I believe I've come up with something darn close to the original without breaking into my kids's 529 college savings program.
This meter comes from Allied Electronics.
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70209513
The address just posted doesn't have a picture however if you click on the "similar products" tab below the meter description, you'll see one's with pictures. All of the face layouts are the same, the only variation is what scale of volts you want. So the one I bought SKU=70209513 goes from 0 - 15 volts. They aren't giving them away but it was a better price than an original. The company did take a while to ship it to me, I swear they're making them individually as needed. I am happy with the overall look though. I just painted the bezle up last night and now am waiting on the momentary switch before I actually install it in my dash. I'll take a picture when it's all done.
Hope this helps.
- Chris
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i dont think that one is going to work
its a 2 1/2" gage. the originals are 2" or 2 1/16"
here are some links. i dont know if these will help or not.
http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=184127
these may work
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-A-M-INST-Power-Volts-DC-Indicator-Panel-Meter-Gage-265-waterproof-1mA-/280912054717
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Weston-0-60-Volt-DC-Panel-Meter-Model-506/360666214995
i dont think most of the bellow ones will work. they are to big
http://www.rammeter.com/simpson-electric-round-style-analog-panel-meter-dcv.php
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/62mm-DC-0-20V-Analog-Volt-Voltmeter-Meter-Panel-Free-Shipping/819861007.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Weston-model-1021-0-5-10-20-Peak-Volts-Panel-Meter-/360484831438
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=weston+dc&_pgn=4&_skc=75&rt=nc
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Hi there,
Well, I don't claim to know anything about what happened to my halftrack between 1943 and when I bought it in 2007. Maybe it was 2008, I lost track. No pun intended. At any rate, there was a hole in the dashboard with the three slots for mounting screws in there when I bought it. Perhaps somebody before me cut a larger hole than what White originally put in there, I don't know. The good news is however between humidity induced thunder storms this evening I got a hair up my butt and decided to put my new gauge and switch in. If I waited until we had a clear day I'd never get anything done this summer. Here's a picture of how it turned out.
(http://[URL=http://s863.photobucket.com/user/cpetronis/media/DSC02290.jpg.html][IMG]http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab192/cpetronis/DSC02290.jpg)[/URL][/img]
It fit right in without any modifications to the existing hole. Needless to say I measured it before I purchased the gauge and everything looked as if it should fit. Granted, I didn't have a lot of room to spare but she did go in so I guess that's what matters. Personally I think it looks pretty good.
I was a little miffed about the push button switch as the company had a minimum order of like $15 or something so even though the switch was $9 they tacked on the extra money to bring it to the minimum. They then had the audacity to charge me $9 to ship it. It's in and working though so I guess I can't complain too much. That's not true, I'm a natural born complainer, just ask my wife.
- Chris
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Dang, I guess the picture thing didn't work too well. Darn modern tech-not-ogy.
Here's a direct link to the picture, maybe you can cut and paste this into your browers.
http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab192/cpetronis/DSC02290.jpg
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Looks good Chris. I have found some of the switches are still availible from Cole-hersee, which you should be able to get from your local auto parts store.
Gary
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that looks great.
they list it as a 2 1/2" gage which would normally also mean the hole size but these are called panel gages so im guessing they may use the od of the face for their description.
there are many sources for the Cutler Hammer switch 8440K3
if you do a google or bing search you will find a bunch.
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Thanks for the positive input. My next step is to actually test it out for what I intended it to do. Long story short, I believe my ammeter on the gauge cluster might be a bit out of whack. When I first start the vehicle the needle just barely goes to the positive side, then within a few seconds it always drops down to just a hair on the negative. I'm guessing these things are probably calibrated somehow so it's not hard to imagine that after 70 years it might be slightly off.
Well a few months ago my batteries were quite dead. It turns out my voltage regulator bit the dust. By following the manual and jumping a couple of terminals thereby bypassing it, I confirmed that my generator was good. Too good actually because I jumped it at about 1500 rpm, pegged the ammeter and was putting out some ridiculous voltage. I guess that's the purpose of the regulator.
So I put this voltmeter in as a means of attempting to more accurately reflect what's happening with juice on the batteries. When I put my fluke meter on the batteries after there's been a drain on them I can see something like 14 volts going in. When the engines off they read 12.5.
So to test this gauge I hit the button with the engine off, sure enough a perfect 12.5 which I expected. Then I started the engine which caught pretty quickly. I pressed the button again hoping to see 14 volts because I expected the voltage regulator to kick on and put juice back into the batteries after cranking for 4 seconds. Apparently not. So I'm thinking the next step will be to run the motor and turn on every light on the vehicle. That should kick the regulator on so I can read 14 volts on my new meter thereby confirming that my regulator is doing it's job and bypassing my suspected out of whack ammeter.
Somebody check me on my logic there please.
- Chris ???
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On a system with a generator it is not uncommon to have to rev the motor a little to get the generator to kick in. 1000 to 1500 RPM should do it. You should not have to create a draw to get it to kick on. When the batteries are charging you want to see somewhere between 13.75 volts and 14.5. Any lower and your batteries won't charge properly. Any higher and you fry the batteries.
Steve
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Guys can you explain what the momentary switch is and what it does,
Im starting my wiring and some stuff is beyond me :-\
Andy
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The volt meter just reads voltage only when the momentary switch is pushed. Mostly they were used when there was a radio on board so they could check battery level. The gauge cluster has a amp gauge to indicate charge. later on the volt meter and switch were removed and a plate was put over the hole.
Don G.
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Thanks don, so is it needed?, can i mount the volt meter without it?
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Andy
If you want to use the gauge you need some type of momentary switch so you don't ruin the gauge. If you just want to mount it for looks, hole filler, then you don't. I have mine mounted but not hooked up.
Steve A.
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Thanks again guys,
But if you were to mount and hook up an aftermarket volt meter do you still need the momentary switch? will it damage something else in the system or gauge still?
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If your not going to actually hook up the volt meter then the only reason to need the switch to fill the hole.
Don G.
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According to the wiring schematic even if the ignition switch is in the off position you still get current to the volt gauge so yes, you want a switch. I believe the ignition switch only cuts power to the coil. All other items remain hot.
Steve A.
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I wanted an original gauge but couldn't swing the cost, I went on Ebay and searched for "General electrics voltage gauges" and found a voltage gauge that was almost identical but is only 0-15 volts. It cost me $10.50 with shipping. I am debating on weather to change the face out for the original style, but it would work as it is. Just another option for keeping the original look with out the high cost or years of searching.
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I know it's not perfect, but after a number of years looking for something that would fit, look the right age, not AC, not milliamperes, or didn't top out at some ridiculous voltage here's what I found. I shoved it in the dash as soon as I got home to see if it really fit.
Just had to share.
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I just found a possible replacement for the 0-20 volt DC voltmeter. It is slightly less diameter than the standard Hickok ? 2 1/16 , the body that fits into the dash is 51.3 mm (2.02 inches) ( a smidge over 2 1/64 ) but it makes up for that by being under $ 8.00 whole dollars , including shipping !looks good from the front and will be better than a gaping hole for now. That and the modified door push button switch mentioned above and you are all set. I ordered one and will post in a week or so after it arrives on how it worked. enclosed are some pictures of the gauge and dimensions
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New voltmeter arrived and fits perfectly, sure looks better than a cover or hole. as you can see, still lots of work ahead.
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I was just looking at the picture of an original voltmeter posted on another thread and noticed that the case of this one and the original are very very similar, it's just the face that is not the same as this one has the international symbol for DC volts rather than saying DC volts.
For those that are handy, I bet the face plate could be changed, either screened or printed, to one made to match the original. One would then have a working gauge that looked nearly identical to an original to everyone but a very experienced restorer.
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Here is the picture from the other thread I mentioned( was upside down in the original, dash being worked on)
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I just got one of ebay, thanks!. Once its painted green to match dash no one will ever know muhhaaa
Andy
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I got mine today, but when hooked up the needle blows past 20 volt right the end. Did you test yours to verify its working correct? Tested on a few different batterys
New voltmeter arrived and fits perfectly, sure looks better than a cover or hole. as you can see, still lots of work ahead.
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No, I haven't checked, will do so tonight
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looks like it is a 6 volt system, put it on my lawn mower battery and worked fine
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I believe the answer can be found here
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_8/2.html
I will use some test equipment tonight and see how much of a resistor needs to be inserted into the line to make it read 20 volts on full scale.
bud
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my precision power supply on the fritz, so just hooked it up to a 12 volt battery and seemed to work fine just as is, read 12 volts. will look into it further once power supply fixed and let you all know.
bud
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then mine must be a dud >:(
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if the meter movement moves , maybe just the resistor inside is bad. see if it will come apart and check via the web address in my previus post, you may be able to fix it easily
bud
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i purchased some of these before they where mentioned here
some of these are bad.
i think its about 50 50
here are 3 good ones and 3 bad ones.
the good ones only have one blue resistor on the positive side.
the bad ones have the blue resistor on the negative side and other resistors (or something)
the bad ones are also connected pos to neg.
i tried just cutting the connection but that does no good.
i havent tried moving the blue resistor to the pos side.
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_18522.JPG)
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_18532.JPG)
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_18543.JPG)
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/IMG_18554.JPG)
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I think the working ones are wired properly, with current coming in the positive terminal passing through the resistor to get the needed voltage drop to safely move the meter without over driving it and back out the negative terminal.
The bad ones have some extra components. The diode ( small black cylinder with a white band on one end) is there I think to protect the meter movement from an error in attaching the voltmeter to the circuit (i.e. + connected to - . the white band indicates the cathode , or negative end and since current can only pass through a diode from plus ( the blank end ) to minus ( the band end) you want the band end to be point away from the positive terminal. the resistor has no directionallity and can be on either side of the meter , it just has to be in series with the meter movement. the capacitor will not pass DC current ( so if it is in series, the meter will not work) and probably is there to absorb surges in the current . it should be wired BETWEEN the plus and minus terminals if you use it at all. you might also check the value of the resistor ( un-solder at least one end) . make sure it is not shorted ( would explain the full needle movement described by a previous member) or just open ( would explain the bad ones). hope that helps.
bud
in the last picture it appears to be a diode wired in backward, not allowing current to pass. the band has to be away from the positive terminal
just noticed, the diode in the bottom picture is wired in backwards and is not allowing the current to pass. the band must be away from the positive terminal.
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Quality stuff there ::)
Don G.
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good info, ok so im not a rocket scientist, does it matter which way the blue resistor is wired in? one way or either way?
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no. resistors are bi directional, only with the diode do you need to watch polarity. The band end ( - ) goes toward the minus terminal and in series with the resistor and the meter movement .One way to keep this straight is to think of water flowing through a hose with the source being the positive terminal and the end with the water coming out as the negative end, as you add more hose, ( more components) the old end becomes positive as that is now the source and the new hose end is negative . you keep adding hose ( components ) until you connect back to the negative terminal.The meter is directional too , so watch that you attach the meter wire that originally went to the positive terminal to the same positive side terminal of the circuit . if a bit confusing read the short description on the URL I posted above. that should help. I think all the meters can be easily salvaged . you can google the resistor code and read the value of the resistor in case it is bad. I have a ton of resistors and if anyone needs one send me a SSAE and I'll send you one back.
bud
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this might make it easier to visualize.
the resistance of the meter is 500 ohms. and it takes 1 milliamp to read full scale. R multiplier is any resistor you put into the circuit that will eat up enough juice ( resistors are like toasters) passing through it so the meter gets what is left .....1 millamp. and will read full scale. this is how you can use the same meter movement to measure even huge voltages, just put a bigger resistor in there.
bud
now go design some rockets
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Its most likely the Diode that is in backwards is there to help with voltage spikes. It has a break down voltage that will allow surges to back feed across it. usually the kind of thing that is attached to a coil to absorb the pulse when the coil is shut off and the field collapses.
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Not wanting to turn this into an electronics forum, but how would the current flow through the diode if is in backwards? relying on the breakdown voltage to feed the meter movement seems somewhat esoteric for a cheap meter. Please PM me to teach me about what you were saying.
bud
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The diode will only let voltage flow in one direction hence it having the white band located to one end which indicates which direction the voltage will flow. It would protect the meter in case of accidental wiring up backwards.
The capacitor would be to smooth out the voltage to the meter and would allow the meter to show a constant voltage reading despite any voltage fluctuations that might occur in the electrical system. These must be installed correctly because if the are not installed using the correct polarity they will fail with some bad results. Capacitors have an indication on the outside of the covering denoting the negative connection lead. The capacitor needs to be connected in series with the meter. It also acts as a small battery and will power the meter for a few seconds after the power is removed.
Why some meters have some of these parts and not the others and why some are installed incorrectly comes down to poor quality control.
I would recommend that the diode be fitted on the ( - ) terminal and the resistor and the capacitor be fitted to the ( + ) terminal. You don't need to have the capacitor and will work fine without one. I would keep the diode and the resistor in the circuit, and you could always add a separate fuse to protect the meter if you want.
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don't you mean install the capacitor across the meter , not in series with it as DC can't really pass through a capacitor ? These are all good ideas and between all of us we should get these pesky meters fixed
bud
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just to update, I did contact seller, he acknowledges there were some issues with these, and stated the problem has been corrected. It was stated they used 6v parts in some by mistake,
He is sending me another one, and he says he checked it before shipping
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New replacement voltage meters for your halftrack dashboard. Not cheap, but US manufactured by Simpson. Scroll down page to select type of meter you require ie 0-30 volt DC. Come in either 2.5" or 3.5" sizes.
http://www.rammeter.com/simpson-electric-round-style-analog-panel-meter-dcv.php
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Found this momentary switch at local Ace Hardware. Looks good and best of all it works!! Only thing is it has spade connectors so if you are a purist this is not for you. I think button is as close to originals as your going to get.
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Looks pretty good, I hope I will find a Volt meter for my Halftrack someday.