halftrackinfo
classified ads => halftracks and parts wanted => Topic started by: prestone on August 28, 2013, 12:50:17 AM
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hi
'm looking for pictures of the insides of adaptation M2 / M16
several photos exist but I'd like to know if it is a trailer or M45 only turret is mounted??
(http://i72.servimg.com/u/f72/15/66/68/21/gpa310.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=245&u=15666821)
(http://i72.servimg.com/u/f72/15/66/68/21/gpa110.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=248&u=15666821)
(http://i72.servimg.com/u/f72/15/66/68/21/gpa910.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=246&u=15666821)
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Supposedly that modification was known as the 'WASP'. I'd like to find some interior shots also, so far none have shown up.
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I have a couple Polish books on halftracks. In volume 2 there is a section on the M16B halftrack along with 5 line drawings of the front, rear, each side and top view. I think I saw another post of yours asking about gas tank locations. They are the same M2 tanks but moved forward as in an M3. Their is a rack of four tomb stone ammo cans up front behind driver and center seats, no radio. Here is what the book says on the M16b's.
Before the invasion of Normandy Colonel John B. Medarisa, Chief of Armament of the First United States Army, ordered the reconstruction of Half-Track Car M2 vehicles as self-propelled anti-aircraft guns. Turrets with M2HB machine guns were dismantled from the Machine Gun Trailer M55 and Multiple Machine Gun Trailer Mount M55 units and installed in the cargo compartmants of M2 vehicles using a special ring which compensated for the lack of opening upper parts of the cargo compartment armor plates. The new vehicles were unofficially designated M16B. They were assigned to twenty anti-aircraft battalions previously equipped with towed artillery pieces and were used in combat since the beginning of the Normandy invasion. When the danger of enemy air strikes subsided the vehicles were used to provide fire support to fighting infantry.
I think volume 1 of this set may have some photos of the M16B and will have to check next time I'm at the shop. I currently do not have a scanner to post the line drawings but can take pictures of them to post. I'm also having problems uploading to the G503albums site. I'm at the point that I can't even get one photo to post.
Hope this info helps.
Steve A.
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hey
genial
possibility when you take pictures, will be wonderful to see inside
and then the references of books
regards
prestone
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What i've wondered is if they put a plate steel floor on top of the m2 troop seats and then bolted the ring to that. You could fit the later style quad trailer in between the vertical track armor if the wheel supports for the trailer were cut off.
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I got my G503 album account working again so I will take a picture of the top view and post later tonight. I will also check in vol. 1 of the polish halftrack set for photos. Here is a photo of the cover to the Polish vol. 2 halftrack book. It can be found on eBay.
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/DSCN1277.JPG)
Steve A.
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Here are the drawings. Sorry for the delay in getting them posted.
Steve A.
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/20130908154858314_0004.jpg)
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/20130908154858314_0003.jpg)
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Hello guys
Heres a good pic of a M16B with the side ammo door open, but no fuel tank there? Also if you look at the drawings top view there just doesn't seem to be room for the gun mount to rotate without it hitting the corners of the fuel tanks, The original test vehicle for the M16 was the T1E2 which was an M2 with the quad mount, it had only one fuel tank mounted behind the cab just like the M15....its hard to say just where the fuel tank or tanks were moved too, we may never know.....
Dave
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/M16B002.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/M16B002.jpg.html)
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Heres a pic of the T1E2...
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/DSCF1597.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/DSCF1597.jpg.html)
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thank you for the info
to see the photo and the space available, I would tend to say that the tank is positioned as the M15 and on each side two chargers.
continue the recheches
best regard
prestone
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I think I found a photo of the rear of an M16B. I can't tell much from the sides but the set up look simular to the drawing.
(http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/medium/untitled11.bmp) (http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showphoto.php?photo=163928&title=untitled11&cat=500)
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I think that is an M13, notice the twin .50's. It also has one of the grenade boxes mounted on the top inside of the side armor that are unique to M13-M16-M16A1.
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I think just about every picture I've seen of a wasp so far shows a skate rail still mounted.
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this is interesting
In your opinion,
the rear floor of M2 is completely replaced for this change?
it is the same model as the M16?
prestone
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I think the overhead shot from the book is a complete guess. My personal opinion is they probably did remove the m2 floor and set up a mount system similar to that in the m16 and then left the skate installed so they would not have to make a new perimeter rail.
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check this out
http://www.military-vehicle-photos.com/picture/number10000.asp
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super
unlike the old pictures the screen is hinge
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looking ........
http://www.armortek.co.uk/Forum3b/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=301&start=0
yeessssss
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Prestone
Yes, the conversation in the armortek forum was between me and Tony, I had been in contact with Tony many times since then, unfortunately I can no longer reach him, :( would love to see some pics of his halftrack progress...
Dave
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So now we know! mystery solved... the fuel tanks were never moved, they just raised the quad mount high enough to clear them....I also learned that the M16B was often refered to as a "Patterson conversion", named after Col. Charles G Patterson who came up with the idea. I am currently waiting for a reply from a guy that has more unpublished pics of the M16B interior, so hopefully more pics soon....
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/model20pics220034.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/model20pics220034.jpg.html)
This pic is looking from the front to the back, just in front of his boot is the fuel tank with a bit of the skate rail above it.....
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/my20models20620009.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/my20models20620009.jpg.html)
This is the same pic but looking more to the right, you can see the skate rail curve around the back...
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/model20pics220036.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/model20pics220036.jpg.html)
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a secretive the general patterson .....
pictures of the inside would be welcome, especially the floor.
with the time I have all the information to realized my M16B
regards
Prestone
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That's a tight fit in there. I like how they have the spare barrel on the skate rail support.
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That seems to put the fuel tanks in the original position unlike the drawing.
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quite the tanks remain in their original location, now the last riddle ....... how is the floor???
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If I was building one I would not use the overhead drawing from the book as a reference since it is not correct. In addition to not having the skate rail it shows floor storage in each rear corner for tombstone ammo cans which is obviously not correct (unless its an m16 or a1 or a2). I'm guessing they just put a piece of sheet steel over top of the existing seat bins and then bolted the quad support ring to that.
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you think the floor remained of origin?
and then modified comm an M16?
prestone
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Im curious as to what that soldier is standing on in the second photo, I thought the ammo storage bins were removed, I know there is a photo of an M16B with the p/s ammo door open and there is no bin there, and plus whatever he is standing on just isn't deep enough to be a ammo bin ???
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Im curious as to what that soldier is standing on in the second photo, I thought the ammo storage bins were removed, I know there is a photo of an M16B with the p/s ammo door open and there is no bin there, and plus whatever he is standing on just isn't deep enough to be a ammo bin
Good catch. It is about the right size for an M2a1 ammo bin that they installed on the right side to give more room for the guy manning the pulpit.
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If you compare this photo of an M2A1 side by side with the photo above it appears as if this mystery bin is right up against the fuel tank, normally there is a seat there ???
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/m2a105.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/m2a105.jpg.html)
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agree with you dave
look at the position of his foot, it is not lay flat.
foot he would not put on a tombstone?
Prestone
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His foot is standing on a flat square cornerd box. His toe is pointing at the corner
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we must continue to look for documentation to find full amenagement,
some points are the position of reservoirs, and the presence of the ring on some halftracks
Prestone
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the puzzle is complete, a few details to find
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Looks like that one may be a little charred around the edges!
Steve
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hey
more people have found pictures of modified M2 M16B?
regards
prestone
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Good day all!
I have to look through our photo archives, but I am fairly certain we have more photos of M16Bs in service in the ETO. If I am able to find any more, I am happy to post them here.
I have served as the director of the US Army Air Defense Artillery Museum for the past twenty months and have a special place in my heart for our halftracks. We currently have an M15A1, two M16s and an M16A2. One of our M16s is fully functional, however we've had some turret drive belt issues lately. I am currently working on an exhibit on all of the sub-types of AA halftracks.
Glad to be here and I'm looking forward to contributing more here!
v/r
Jon
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Good day Jon,
Welcome to the board. I am in central Kansas and have several halftracks. One of the vehicles currently being restored is a M13 converted to M16. I am working on the M45 quad mount this winter. What kind of issues are you having with your belts?
Kevin
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hello jon
great if you have more photos of M16B particularly inside
regards
Prestone
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Good day Jon,
Welcome to the board. I am in central Kansas and have several halftracks. One of the vehicles currently being restored is a M13 converted to M16. I am working on the M45 quad mount this winter. What kind of issues are you having with your belts?
Kevin
Kevin,
Glad to be here! We blew one of the belts while demonstrating the turret a few months ago and have not been able to find a replacement. I'd like to do all of the belts simultaneously, but I've contacted Gary at Gary's Halftracks and he was out of stock. I've got a couple other quads here (three M55s, an M51 and another M16 and an M16A2), but due to budget and staff cuts, I simply haven't had time to look at the belts on the others to see if any are usable.
In addition to these, I'm also looking for a project M2A1 for my own personal collection (although right now, funding a Battle of the Bulge tour next December is a higher priority!) once I finish my 1942 GPW.
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if you just need new belts here is the part number
http://halftrackinfo.com/index.php?topic=254.0
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Steve,
I'd heard that while 20" belts will work, the proper size is 19" and the 20" wears out faster as a result.
If that's not the case, then I'll order these right away!
Jon
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i have not tried the belts myself but have heard that the 20" work good.
if you try the 19" or the 20" let us know how it goes so i can update the information for others if we need to make changes.
steve
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I installed those belts and couldn't get enough of the slack out of them. I actually broke the tab that the tightening screw presses against trying to get them tight. Dag nab it!
I have a new set of belts that John Cheney provided me but haven't checked them out yet.
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i have changed the link to list the 19" gates belts.
thanks for the correction.
http://halftrackinfo.com/index.php?topic=254
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Hi
no information or pictures the modified M2 in M16B ????
Regards
Prestone
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There may be a surviving M16B. Waiting on details right now, but it is more than likely going to be coming here to the Air Defense Artillery Museum at Ft. Sill.
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There may be a surviving M16B. Waiting on details right now, but it is more than likely going to be coming here to the Air Defense Artillery Museum at Ft. Sill.
Can't wait to hear more about this hope it works out.
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Sadly it was mis-identified as an M16B. It's an M16A1 converted in April 1952.
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Jon,
Thanks for the dataplate post. Two things.
1. Here is an example of the White Motor Co. dataplate being used in re-builds. This was a Diamond T built M3 converted to M16A1.
2. The vehicle frame number M3-7653W has a serial number on the re-build data plate of 28910 but I noticed over on the G503 site that the same frame number was shown as being in Maryland and having a serial number of 23910. Do you have any additional info on the vehicle. The serial number 23910 seems to actually fit with other half-tracs.
Kevin
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i bought a copy of Allied/Axis 19 on the M2/M2a1 Halftrack. On page 19 it says:
" The 377th Anti-Aircraft Battalion was assigned M2 halftracks prior to the invasion of Normandy to tow its M55 Quad mount machine gun trailers. As a conversion kit was already available to mount the M55 into the bed of a two and a half ton truck it was decided to mount the guns in the back of their prime movers to simplify deployment of the weapon. This was such a successful conversion it was eventually accomplished by an additional 20 battalions. The inset photograph shows the M55 in its firing position and its two main components, the M45 gun array and the M20 TRAILER"
Unfortunately the picture is from the outside and you can't see the trailer. I have one of these kits to mount the trailer in the 2.5 ton truck.
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It seems like most of the rebuilds from Bowen-Mclaughlin in the 50's used a White Motor Co M16 tag.
Steve
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I remember coming across an article some where that explained the conversion on the gun trucks, if I remember right they first welded angle iron at specified locations on the flat bed of the truck, next they installed ramps to pull the gun trailer up onto the truck, they then removed the wheels and lowered the gun mount down between the angle iron and welded it to the angle iron, it was suppose to be a very quick and easy conversion. I suspect the same method was used on the M2 conversion, remove the rear seats, lower the square base of the mount down between the track armor and weld it to the floor, my question is this, would the square base fit down between the track armor?
Dave
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my question is this, would the square base fit down between the track armor?
I think it will but I'll check. It is a simple angle iron framework. I think however if the trailer bottom was even with the bottom of the vertical track armor the guns would not be high enough to clear the sides. In other words i think they put a large flat plate down first on top of the rear seat lockers then put the mount on top of that.
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They could have also used a spacer ring to raise it up higher, like the M3 to M16A1 conversion
Dave
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Heres a good pic of a removable mount in a gun truck, tires and wheels were stored on the truck as well as the ramps, if the m2 conversion did use the square base the hitch and jacks would need to be removed......
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn42/daydaypat/maxson01_360213802_large.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/daydaypat/media/maxson01_360213802_large.jpg.html)
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Hey Dave
We have the certainty the turret had risen on rings, several indications; height of the turret in M2 and the internal photos.
The missing information concern the pertie between reservoirs and driving position
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Hey
Always nobody having information on halftracks modified with turrets Maxson :(
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Found an interesting thread over in the Missing-lynx.com forum in regards to how the mount was attached to the floor of the HT, one of the members was in contact with an owner of an M2 who was restoring it and mentioned some unusual mods, such as a square steel plate attached to the floor with a circular bolt pattern in it, also the ammo lockers had been removed, very interesting thread.....
Dave
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Dave are you a member of the missing-lynx AFV group. I tried to sign up and it says not taking new members?
Kevin
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Kevin
No im not a member but was considering joining, lots of interesting threads there, I was reading one about the Odd British halftracks with the extended tops, I learned that they were modified to carry explosives..... 8)
Dave
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BTT
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Still no information on modification M2 to M16 'Wasp'? :)
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I would hazard a guess and say the ones that survived the operation were converted back to m2a1 not sure if it would have been post war or late war maybe both.
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Back around Aug/Sept I spoke with a guy on FB who was in the military, he said his unit found a possible M16B in Germany, it was an M2 in pieces with a Quad mount and it was being brought back to the states, I think Ft Bliss, he said he would go in Oct, to look at it closer, unfortunately I haven't heard anything else, anyone else hear anything about this?
Dave
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I don't have any new info but wanted to keep the thread alive I had a hard time finding it when looking again so I bumped it. Thinking about building one from one of my m2's.
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M16Bs in action
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675075056_United-States-soldiers_World-War-II_half-track-armored-vehicle_artillery-attack
Dave
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Another M16B in action
https://youtu.be/eUhSoOJtgqk
Dave