Tracks for halftracks

[spec4don]

I know most of you are also on the "G" but for those that aren't check this thread out if you have any thoughts or contacts please chime in!

http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=228085

Thanks Don G.

[spec4don]

This is a post over on the G. Anybody in Europe interested in tracks? From Mike Keller:


The one remaining Chinese excavator track manufacturer who hasn't expressed disinterest in manufacturing tracks has received the sample we sent him. He called today to express his conclusions: "No problem, we can make these."

He asked for information on the rubber composition. I had received information earlier from someone here that the original composition was 100% natural rubber. Does anyone have any information or thoughts on this?

I will start pressing for a price. The terms are the same: how much for a container of 44 tracks? I will keep my fingers crossed that the start-up costs can be absorbed by the purchase of this initial container. I am willing to coordinate and distribute this container for neither fee nor profit. Heck, I haven't made fee nor profit since the 2008 election; why start now?

Would anyone in Europe care to place an order? The order of a second container would surely make this venture more attractive for the manufacturer and the price cheaper for all of us.

I will be in Hong Kong the first week of March and hope to meet with the manufacturer then.

[michael keller]

I'm leaving for Hong Kong on 2/18.  I'm having a lot of problems with the Chinese manufacturers as they think that just any old material will work just fine, and the price is real good.  I'll see if I can connect with them face-to-face and convey the specs that we must have.

I've gotten a boost in help form a couple of Steves.  It's much appreciated.

We should get together in Louisville to shake hands and talk about the efforts to make new tracks.

[spec4don]

Regards the splice question, here is the Goodyear reply:

Mike,

There are rubber splices and potentially fabric splices if we have fabric in this plyup, but the cord is continuous and has no splice. The strength of the belt is in the cord in this case. The rubber splice welds together during cure and the potential fabric splice is just a bias overlap and neither should play a role in this belt. The rubber is in contact with the ground and you won’t be able to tell where the rubber splice was after cure as this all flows together.

 The snow cat uses track of a certain length, but it is all fabric and open end so there is a separation in each belt as they assemble it. This doesn’t seem to cause them a problem, but they probably will replace it much sooner than you would ever think of replacing yours. Your track will be endless with steel cable so quite different.

The thickness of this sample is in the 1.3-1.5” thick range. The cord is situated about 5/8” from the bottom to the center of the cord line so there is more rubber on the outside which contacts the ground as there should be.

Jeff

Thundercat's question:

I have been working with the concept of a container of tracks (about 50 tracks) since way back when we naively thought we could just get this done in China. The idea was that the one time start-up costs could be spread across 50 tracks. We have a new ball game now.

Here's the IED just down the road: the track mold. I'll eat the cost of building the jig and I'll eat the cost of assembling the first two prototypes that will be used for road tests. Steve in Michigan is kicking in metallurgical analyses of the crossbars and guides, as well as getting prices on making these in America. Rob has volunteered resources but has not found a place to contribute yet. And that's it, guys, for the contributors to this project.

The mold price: about $15,000 give or take. That's a chunk of change for testing prototype tracks. I've been trying to get the Argentinians to mold the first prototypes, and maybe the first 50 tracks, but no response. The Argentinians have an original track mold. That's the cheapest option. If they remain unresponsive, what then? How do we pay for a mold? Could/should we use an existing Goodyear mold regardless of its shape just for testing purposes?

The mold problem aside, I guess the bottom line is this: if there aren't 25 guys willing to get behind this and commit to the purchase of 50 tracks after tests, we're wasting our time, and I'll gladly pass all the data on to someone else willing to do the heavy lifting with less resources behind him.

This is last post over on the "G". It's looking promising at some point if you want tracks you'll have to commit. I want drive mine so hoping this comes through.

Don G.

[spec4don]

Hey Guys, I'm copying this post from over on the "G" if you can help Mike Keller with any of the items it would sure help, we all need tracks so the more horses pulling the wagon the better!

From the G503:


Cost of two belts from Veyance (Goodyear) would cost around $1,000. Include the hardware and rubber and the belt approach may not be affordable.

Unless there is a cheaper belt in China. My guy there is looking around.

Another bigger problem with the belts: my guy in China has pointed out that you can't vulcanize rubber over vulcanized rubber belts. The heat and pressure of the second vulcanization would adversely affect the previously vulcanized belt rubber. I'm not sure I buy that as Veyance didn't seem to have a problem with the concept. On the other hand, the belt engineer wasn't a rubber engineer. Perhaps this is why the rubber guys in St. Marys declined to get involved in this project. China says a semi-vulcanized belt approach may be feasible. To be continued.

I'd like to air a gripe: a lot of guys have offered help but have done nothing. Guys who offered to price hardware have gone silent. Guys who have offered to get the metallurgy done have not. There seems to be only one guy in this canoe - me - and I'm getting tired of carrying the water and doing the heavy lifting while others do nothing. Outside of the track samples provided to me, nobody else has contributed squat to the effort. Somebody needs to get off their butts besides me. If this doesn't get done, the only option will be $7,000 tracks purchased in bulk. And that option won't be available forever. Think about it.

[bright87]

Check the "G"
Looks like Mike is throwing in the towel on getting new tracks made.

[bud44750]

I am willing to commit for a new set, if you are trying to gauge interest. assuming under 4000 for a pair.

[yd328]

Take a look at the topic on the G and send Mike an email, he's taking a count now to get the first container off the ground.

Gary

[spec4don]

Trying to get the word out for those of you not on the G503 this is the latest on tracks and it looks like it's crunch time. Not where we wanted to be but it looks like it's the end of the line for the foreseeable future:

Re: Who Needs New Tracks for Their Halftrack??

Unread postby Michael Keller » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:34 am

I'm meeting with the Israelis in Washington on October 15. Shortly thereafter I hope to place an order for a full shipping container of tracks. That will be 50 tracks or 25 pairs of tracks. That will require deposits from the buyers who have expressed an interest in buying tracks. If there are not sufficient deposits to order the container, there will be no tracks for anyone.

I am sharing what I have learned, both technically and the vendor prices, with the Israelis. I'm still trying to hammer the price down if possible but everyone should be prepared for a price in the neighborhood of $4,000 per track. I surely wish we could have gotten a better price, and perhaps that will occur if I keep pushing, but a better price will be somewhere between a hope and a prayer.

Everyone needs to remember: this is the only shot at getting tracks. Period. Anyone who has said they want to buy tracks who may be hesitant to part with the deposit money the Israelis will require needs to let me know now so I don't make a fool out of all of us in Washington.

I'm open to how to handle the money. The simplest way is to open a dedicated bank account and wire the deposit and the balance to the Israeli's bank. I don't really care if it's me or someone else handling the money. Whoever handles the money will, of course, have to provide full contact info, including address, email, phone, etc. Never having done anything like this, I'm clueless on the best way to handle it.

I will receive and distribute the tracks to the buyers via US freight pre-paid by the owners of the tracks. If we get that far.

[spec4don]

Mikes latest up date. Looks like he's getting closer:

Re: Who Needs New Tracks for Their Halftrack??

Postby Michael Keller » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:44 am

I received a confirmation from the Israelis today that, based on the information we have provided, they will be able to produce tracks for somewhere in the $2-3,000 range. The only way to get cheaper tracks would be to make them in Thailand or some other Asian area with cheap labor. Making tracks is very labor intensive and requires 3 man-days per track. That amount of labor cost $1,600 in Israel but only $100 in Thailand. I have offered to participate directly in setting up manufacturing somewhere in Asia.

The Israelis don't like our cable bid and prefer their cables and cable prices. Their cables are brass coated to increase rubber adhesion. Okey-dokey.

They use a "low hardness nail" to fasten the crossbars instead of machine screws. I think nail actually means a rivet, which is perfectly acceptable.

I believe that what everyone will hear eventually is a call for an order for a container of tracks at the most reasonable price that can be achieved. After I make that call for the first container order, and the finances are coordinated by Rob Ross, my work on this project will be finished. If not enough guys step forward to purchase that first container, this project will still be completed and there may well be no tracks for anyone again.

On other fronts, the Ohio manufacturer is still mulling this project over. Ditto the French manufacturer. But as we all know, the Israelis are the only ones who have already climbed the learning curve and who have a proven track record.

[scotty71]

The only problem that I can see is, are we going to be in a situation again where people show their interest and when the time comes to put their money down they back out. If this happens we can say goodbye to any tracks ever being made. As has always been said all along the manufacturer needs a minimum order before they will consider opening a production line to produce them.

So if you want a set this will be the last chance EVER for buying new tracks.

[scotty71]

Interesting update on the G503 forums regarding new tracks. Apparently a company in Europe is to begin production of new tracks in early 2015. No information is known about this company and as the poster of this information is keeping things close to his chest so there is some apprehension about this information.

Thread posted -

The tracks made are new tracks.
The mold is bought by our company in Israel this year, The tracks are fitted with new hardware.
The cables for in the tracks are made in France.
In december, the mold completely overhauled for casting of the rubber, the first tracks are produced in February 2015. and are on different halftrack that in our possession are rigorously tested for speed and in terrain so that we can deliver a good product where wei also made a few other aspects including the factory where these are because we are talking about a product to very severe conditions will have to be met, The dealer in USA will be the first tracks then have possession at the beginning of april in the UNITED STATES to sell the name of the dealer I can not give because he has not asked me that one thing is certain the halftrack owners will be able to buy tracks at a reasonable price.
Hope to have been able to answer your questions here, with vr. Greetings Harold

[spec4don]

Scott I there are enough people in the facebook group in Europe we need to have Harold come clean and see if some we can get some one to go take a look and see if this is real!

Don G.

[cobra6]

Count me in if there are new tracks available. Rick Clemens (cobra6) @ Cactus air force wings & Wheels Museum Carson City, Nevada 775-882-7717 (M2A1 under restoration)

[beerman]

Can someone please post a link to the facebook page.  Thanks